Managing misinformation at the speed of AI with John Croll

Truescope co-founder and CEO John Croll helps communications teams understand how the media and public discuss their organizations online. He says generative AI platforms like ChatGPT may accelerate the spread of misinformation, impacting public opinion and company reputations and making the job of a modern communications professional more complex.

They also discuss:

• How the media cycle has sped up, requiring organizations to keep up with the real-time flow of information and sentiment.
• The need for organizations to take control of their “digital facsimile” in both AI databases and in public conversation.  
• Why large language models (LLMs) and other forms of generative AI pose challenges and opportunities for organizations wishing to understand and influence discussion.  
• The critical steps for organizations who want to combat misinformation.

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Links:

• Truescope
• UpGuard: How did the Optus data breach happen?
• NewsGuard
• Truescope Talks
• The Fin podcast
• The Circuit with Emily Chang‍

Resources

🎧 FILED S01:E11: Automating ugly freight in an evolving world | Cate Hull, Freight Exchange

🎧 FILED S01:E01: AI perspectives from a records commissioner | Pauline Toole, City of New York  

📨 FILED Newsletter: ChatGPT: Is this popular new technology a threat to data privacy?

📨 FILED Newsletter: Generative AI will offer up identifiable data if you ask nicely

Transcript

Anthony Woodward  

Welcome to FILED, a monthly conversation with those at the convergence of data privacy, data security, data regulation, records, and governance. I'm Anthony Woodward, CEO of RecordPoint. And with me today is my cohost, Kris Brown, RecordPoint's VP of product management. How are you, Kris?  

Kris Brown  

I am good, Anthony.

Kris Brown  

Thanks for having us again.  

Anthony Woodward  

Yeah, it's great to be here. And in fact, it's great to have another guest on FILED in John Croll. Hi, John.  

John Croll  

How are you? I'm well, Anthony. Thanks for having me. And nice to meet you, Kris.  

Anthony Woodward  

Great, and I brought John on. John's from a very different part of the industry, and I'm super excited for today's conversation, because A, I know John likes to talk and, and quite a number of stories, and I'm sure we'll only drill into a couple today, but B, John has had quite an interesting career that is a lot about managing data and the providence of data and working with different aspects of data around the globe.

Anthony Woodward  

I don't want to steal your thunder, John. It'd be great to give a precis of where you come from and what you're doing at the moment.  

John Croll  

Yeah, thanks, Anthony. I like to tell stories. I'll remember that. But well, I grew up in a media family. So, I've always been around media data and how that influences the community issues and reputations.

John Croll  

So, I had the great honor of running a business called media monitors. And then I sent you for 20 years. And we grew that from a company when we started that was just Press clippings. So, just cutting up newspapers. And by the end of it, we had 5000 clients across Asia Pacific, managing millions of pieces of content on a daily basis, doing content deals and data deals with publishers and broadcasters and social media platforms, and we're influencing how governments were making decisions, how Corporations were managing the reputation or their issues and trying to do that in a way that loud people in the community to have a voice as well.

John Croll  

So, from the letters to the editor from talkback callers, but then also your social media posts. How do we get that to the most important people so they can actually see those views as they happen in the community?  

Anthony Woodward  

Great. And I know you're doing a lot of work at true scope about sentiment analysis and brand pieces of data out there to be great to understand more of that.

John Croll  

Yeah, so sort of 20 years that I sent her a media monitors and we took that business through private equity and then publicly listed it. And as I said, we're in 11 different markets. It was 1 of the more interesting things that I've done is actually go and get a license in China to actually. Consume a whole lot of information from social media platforms.

John Croll  

And the first guy we talked to at the Ministry of Commerce, he just disappeared. And 25 minutes, we were just sitting in a meeting room in the middle of Beijing. And I said, I don't think this guy's coming back. So, we went back and started talking to different people. And finally, we got licensing so that we could bring all this data in.

John Croll  

But yeah, look, I left those companies six years ago and started to think about how could we do this? At scale in real time and a true scope. So, we decided that we were going to build a data architecture that we can digest millions of stories on a daily basis. Then we had to think about within a couple of minutes, how we were going to do all the natural language processing, how we were going to put that into topics and categorization and then do sentiment analysis down at a sentence level.

John Croll  

So, we could give real time information to these corporations and governments to make decisions. I started this business with a guy called Michael Bade who was unreal on, he was building SaaS platforms before. People talked about SAS, but probably the really wise thing that Michael said is we've got to go and get a guy called Con Alexis, who was smart on the back end and how we were going to look at data and how we could ingest that data, you know, in millions of pieces of content in near real time.

John Croll  

And Con has done an unbelievable job that we can give a client experience that's similar with a TikTok video to a long form piece of magazine content or something like that and get that to clients within a couple of minutes of happening. That's incredible.  

Kris Brown  

And look, it almost rings home a little bit John. Sort of talking about the categorization of information, dealing with that at scale for us here. But obviously in our business, we're looking to help people do that from a perspective of managing their information, getting an understanding of what's going on, helping them to protect themselves.

Kris Brown  

Obviously, the simple stuff like retention and disposal, and I say simple and that it's quite a complex process, but we make it simple. What are the problems that you were trying to solve? At Truescope though, as it relates to having that information, you mentioned obviously helping governments, but I'm sort of leaning towards the Optus's Latitude financials, crisis management, the sort of brand awareness pieces.

Kris Brown  

What's the goals there of what you're doing at Truescope?

John Croll  

Yeah, it's a good question, Kris, because probably why we came back into it. So, Michael and I have been in this industry for, as we talked about 20 years, but what we could say, the real problem for corporate comms and government relations people was that the media cycle had sped up so much, you know. When we first started, it was a daily routine.

John Croll  

You had a six o'clock news on TV or you had a newspaper. And then obviously online has changed that where a journalist will now ring up and say, hey, I'm going to publish a story on you. Have you got anybody who wants to put a quote in there, but we're going to publish it in 10 minutes, and we don't care if we've got the quote or not.

John Croll  

And now you brought that down to social media, which the loss of control for a corporate comms or government guy is I get a great story out in the media, it's right in the publication that I want, and then that fires off a whole lot of social media discussion where you don't have that discussion.  

John Croll  

So, to bring up the Optus example that you gave Kris, you're in a situation there that the story breaks, some journo gets that story, which is fantastic for them.

John Croll  

Corporate comms is then going to then work through all the those areas of Optus that you know about, about regulatory and, and inform the board and then has to inform government as well about what's going on. The meantime, social media is lit up and the reputation of Optus is going south very, very quickly.

John Croll  

And they've got to get back into that conversation, but they've got to understand who are the influences, who are the people really driving the story. And I think within an hour, there were a number of data experts that were coming up with a different story to what Optus was talking about. Optus was saying this was extremely... And they had many, many security layers, but the industry experts were coming out and saying this is absolutely, it was an easy hack and Optus has let their guard down.

John Croll  

So, for Optus, they were losing reputation by the minute in that circumstance and Optus customers were all online flooding social media. So, to me, what we do. is find out who are those most influential sources and how do you get the story to them? What's resonating with the public really quickly? So, what are the stories that they're amplifying?

John Croll  

And what are the things that they are is key to them and then getting that to corporate comms. So, in a way that they can make decisions quickly and say, we're not changing what the regulatory or what the other issues are. But these are the people that we have to get to right now. And that's the thing that's changed.

John Croll  

Used to be able to just Sort of have five or six really great relationships with the people who wrote about your industry. Now it changes completely with every different issue that your reputation will be handled in a different way. And that's what we do now in real time or within a couple of minutes of any post, any broadcast, anything online, we'll have the information that you need to make a great decision.

Anthony Woodward  

So, I know John, you and I have talked a little bit about this in the past, but where do you see generative AI and the impacts of AI over that position? You know, how are these companies going to be able to take control of the digital facsimile of themselves that exists both in the AI database, but also in other forms out there?

John Croll  

Yeah, I think it's really interesting, Anthony. And I sort of lived through a couple of these set of technology changes. I remember being away on a strategy off site when Google News alerts came out and we decided if should we play golf this afternoon or just get drunk because it was going to be the change of our industry.

John Croll  

But we decided we'd have a great afternoon and then come back tomorrow and say, how do you beat free? So, we always thought about how do you build layers onto the services that create real value for our clients? So, the thing with, you know, Large Language Models, we think it's going to be both benefit for an industry like us.

John Croll  

And I'll talk about that, but it's also a threat as well. That's for sure. So, the benefit part is we can consume huge amounts of content now and use the large language models and make a summary of the key points extremely quickly. So, there was some stuff that we were doing in America just recently on hospitals and healthcare systems, and we could use a large language model to find out what it thought were the key issues, five major issues.

John Croll  

And then instead of an analyst having to do all that work, then we could go and find all the media coverage against those five issues and give a report within an hour or two that would have usually taken three hours to deliver. So, we're using large language models to find what are the key issues for each industry sector.

John Croll  

And then we're actually getting it to summarize how the media coverage is against each of those sectors. So, you know, That's a massive improvement for the services that sort of real time piece or near real time that we're talking about the other things that it's automating our industry just like it's automating others that corporate comms government relations people aren't really great writing search strings and you know, we can actually just ask it.

John Croll  

To write search strings for us now, or we can get the clients to do much more of that automation that they want on platform, which has been, yeah, we're already seeing the benefits of that, but I think, you know, it's a really interesting part of where we're at. I think one. The discussion has been completely different to where we've been before.

John Croll  

We're talking about automating white collar jobs instead of blue collar jobs. So, the discussion is going to be in the media a lot more because the media is going to be affected. I was reading the other day that Google's already got a model that they've trying out with a major publishers around the world.

John Croll  

And we were looking at some Reddit content on our platform the other day and then noticed. It was on news.com.au already. So, news is already taking interesting stories from forums, giving it to ChatGPT and publishing that content really quickly. So, there's a lot to happen. I think it's really interesting that the industry itself like ChatGPT, you know, Sam Altman's asking for regulation.

John Croll  

That's got to be the first time I've seen an entrepreneur, an innovator in the technology space actually going to Washington and saying this stuff is so dangerous, we need some regulation. But we also know politicians, public servants, it's going to be difficult for them to get ahead of this stuff. And then I was just reading some really interesting stuff yesterday, actually about HyperWrite in the US. It's a company that's instead of using a large language model, it's just using a small language model and allowing people to actually just.

John Croll  

Book restaurants or book flights, book hotels and such, because it's only having to learn a very small sequence of content. So, you know, I think it's going to be massive. It's gonna be great for our industry, but it's also a threat if we allow people to start doing too much themselves and being able to take the price down of what we offer or the smarts down of what we offer.

Kris Brown  

What about the providence or the thing that I guess is unique in this space is because it's generating content now is how much of that can be trusted. How I would think in your industry that pay sure helping people to understand or make decisions that you are reading through the website, you know, talking about fake news and other things a lot of that's deliberate and there's plenty of examples over the last Few years where people have deliberately tried to create campaigns around that.

Kris Brown  

But what happens when the AI is the generator of that? How does that affect the platform? Does that bring a Truescope back into play? So, we go, there was still that monitor that, that oversight.  

John Croll  

Yeah, it's good question, Kris. And I probably when we're sitting back four years ago, the true part of the Truescope came because there was so much discussion around fake news and those sorts of things at that point in time.

John Croll  

Yeah, so I think it's got two elements, one that it's generating, but also, it's learning from the content that's out there from, you know, the language model is being taught by what's out there. So, you got to know that. That's being influenced right by the different bots and bad actors who are trying to put that content out there.

John Croll  

And then it can only learn from what it's actually consumed and see what it thinks is just information that's out there. And so, the first part is there's. poor information going into that. And if you've used it, you already know that you're getting bad results out of some aspects of what you do. The second part is, yeah, reputations get damaged by both fake news and real news.

John Croll  

And our job is to get that information to clients as quickly as possible. The second part is we're talking to good organizations like NewsGuard and those sorts of guys to actually add that straight into the platform. So, from a client's point of view, they will get a piece of information and there will be a NewsGuard score against it.

John Croll  

We haven't done it yet, but we've been talking to the guys that will give you a confidence level about, is this accurate information? Has it been produced by an accurate source, and does it have the rigor of either a journalist or an industry, a known industry expert so that you can rely on it? So, that's good if you're sitting in the corporate comms chair or the, the government relations.

John Croll  

But if you're. Joe public consuming this information, it's still going to affect the reputation or the or what you think of that organization. And that's where the difficulty comes. You can already see about the number of people who don't believe an election was won or lost or whatever. It's even if there's facts in the marketplace, those views don't change.

John Croll  

Audiences don't change.  

Kris Brown  

I'm seeing a like a black mirror episode, right? Like we're running around with the whole, I have to have that score when someone's telling me something. It's like, you know, is, is that real or not? What can individuals do? How does your service or how does a service come along that helps us with that?

Kris Brown  

Because I think it's complimentary, right? Like if, if I'm able to determine what's real and not, what's high quality or not, that'll help me. I may still believe that the, if I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'm still going to believe that the, right. The captains of industry are running that number as well.

Kris Brown  

But if I take the tinfoil brigade out of it for a moment, how do we help individuals?

John Croll  

Yeah. So, the, the most important thing for a corporate or government is to get into the conversation early. So, you've got to be in the room and understand the conversations actually happening. So, that's the first part of what we do.

John Croll  

Then the second part, we get you to the loudest voices or the most influential voices. So. These days, you do not have the resource to go and try to change everyone's mind. You've got to get the facts in front of the people who are the most influential. And that's the second part of what we can do. We can show you these are the people who are having the most influence.

John Croll  

They are regularly in your industry and people actually trust them as a knowledge source. of, and that's the best way to change it. But if you're unaware of that conversation happening and then spending a lot of time with areas where the audience isn't listening to anyway, they've migrated off a different platform and then now with someone else, you've got to get to that person early.

John Croll  

You may not change that person's view, but if you can give them the facts of what the real story is from a corporate point of view, and they're an industry expert, you're predominantly going to be in a good position to start changing the people who want to change. And then the last piece is you can't change everybody's mind.

John Croll  

So, you know, but you've got to be able to show to the organization that you work for. That you're ahead of the story, you know, we like to say we want to make you the smartest person in the room by being the first informed, you know, so that's our job is to get that information to you show you the most influential people and then, yeah, it's your job from a client's point of view to get that right information to the people and we can monitor the reaction to that and see if it's having an effect and seeing what people are resonating with.

Anthony Woodward  

A lot of what we do for corporates, John, and industry in our world does is looks at how do you get rid of information? So, things like right to be forgotten that you see in GDPR in Europe, and you know, the same piece of legislation coming in the new Privacy Act that the Australian government's foreshadowed here federally, and we're seeing similar piece of legislation in the US being crafted over there in Congress.

Anthony Woodward    

I'm really interested in you. How? And I don't know if you stress as far, but you really think about digital pruning and trying to recraft not just the narrative by putting out more information, but actually by getting rid of information. Where do you sit on that fence?

John Croll  

Yeah, it's really interesting, Anthony, that our clients spend a lot of time to actually diminish the story and the usual story inside an organization is something breaks and then the CEO goes We've got to get over the top of this story straight away, then corporate com spend a lot of time talking to the right people to say, we don't think that's an issue.

John Croll  

You should be thinking about this. Maybe we can talk to you about another story next morning. There's nothing that stories disappeared in the CEO goes. I told you it wasn't going to be a big story, but all that effort. That has gone into changing the narrative isn't captured. So, somewhere where TrueScope is thinking about is this sort of media relationship management, which actually tracks every step that's in that media cycle to show the amount of work that's happened to actually either diminish the story, get rid of a story or, or provide the information to journals or industry experts, or even into the social realm of this is the main part of what's happening.

John Croll  

The interesting thing for us is there's two parts of our market. There's the real time part of the market, which is, as I sort of said, to make sure your clients the first to know and the most informed. And then the second part is to start looking over this whole trend environment. And we think this is something that's going to be super interesting for our clients to start to become predictive.

John Croll  

And it's a little bit where Kris was talking before that audiences don't change their mind. An editor in the newspaper knows what resonates with an audience. So, what we want to do is actually track over a period of time going deep in an industry vertical and actually starting to see good numbers, bad numbers released, a product recall, a product launch.

John Croll  

And we think there's a great opportunity for corporate comms or government to actually be able to write the media release and then have a really good picture of what the next 3 to 5 days looks like. And so that's something that we're working on, that predictive model at the moment. The other side of what happens in our industry is the publishers.

John Croll  

And broadcasters, everybody puts a time limit on how long we can retain the content for. So, we, in effect, every 13 months, we're getting rid of everything after 13 months anyway, because then it goes to other services like Factiva or all those sorts of things, which are much more around the archive and used by the corporate librarians.

John Croll  

We're very much around, yeah, the corporate comms, the PR, the investor relations and such.  

Anthony Woodward  

Do you see an extension of that real time world, though, where you're effectively putting proactive digitally created messaging in so effectively looking for topics that need reaction for different brands and that you can also see that reaction is that a direction that you're thinking about because I'm really interested around how that affects, you know, the privacy implications and other elements start to draw in because you start to talk about deep fakes, different narratives that are then automatically created off these topics.

John Croll  

Yeah, won't be something that we do. Our job, we're more the auditor than the consultant. If you like our jobs to give you the information in that real time with the smarts against it, but it's our clients jobs to take the next step around how they manage that for the corporation. In my old job, we did put a consultancy business to the end of it, but it never really resonated.

John Croll  

You know, the data part of the business was the strong part, and the clients were staying. So. Well, that's our job. You know, John, what are you sort of coming into our space for? Or even PR agencies, they're not the biggest part of our job, or of our market. But they were like, are you coming into our space now, John?

John Croll  

So, we think we don't want to see the message back. We can give you all the smarts to say these are the messages that are resonating with audiences. And there were, you know, there's some really good things. We did something for the Singapore government recently where Mainstream media was talking about a new book that was put into the education curriculum, but, and the mainstream media was talking about it.

John Croll  

This was a negative and it shouldn't be exposed to the kids or the social media. So, the parents in Singapore were saying. We think this is fantastic. And this is the education we want to see. So, in the old days, mainstream would have won out in that government would have changed that decision and wouldn't have had any sort of that quick sounding board to come from social media, but by and be able to integrate all that content, have all those issues managed in the one way, well, then the government could get a better response, make a better decision.

John Croll  

And the people actually got what they wanted.  

Kris Brown  

I love hearing the stories of how organizations who have a handle on their data are getting great outcomes because, you know, it's one of those things that we don't, don't think organizations really understand the power of the information that they're generating on our side.

Kris Brown  

And obviously, in your instance, Sean, TrueScope, you know, helping others understand the power of the information that's being generated around and about them. It's really, really interesting to hear those sorts of outcomes. I'm interested to understand, though, as organizations like that are looking at those things, you yourself, I think you mentioned a moment ago, you're, you're keeping it for a certain period of time.

Kris Brown  

How is all of that? What's the tagging that goes on there? What's all of the ontology, if you will, that wraps around this is something that you do as it relates to an industry. Is it multiple ontologies depending on what the customers are doing? How does all that come together?  

John Croll  

Yeah, so everything on the platform is tagged.

John Croll  

And the good thing is it's complete SAS business. So, you know, every interaction that we have is monitored, checked. And one of the cool things we do is for corporate comms is show what. The rest of the organization is accessing. So, there's a lot of time, you know, so economic conditions and people will look at corporate comms as a cost center, not anything that creates revenue.

John Croll  

But what we love is that we can show that the executive team opens content and clicks on these links within a few minutes of them being made aware of this stuff. So, we know the interest in it. But the second part of where you're asking Kris is, so we were using Google and their categorization engine, but we moved off and built our own topic engine.

John Croll  

So, 700 different topics because we wanted to be able to train that system in a much better way and. have it for ourselves instead of sharing that out. I think it's, you know, sort of one of the areas where I where everybody suddenly realizing is like, okay, I'm sharing everything with everybody else out there in the market.

John Croll  

But I think the one thing that we see at the moment is we've got to get smarter all the time. So, going down industry verticals and looking at how data is arranged around an industry vertical is super important because It's much different for a health care system and what people are talking about and what moves the dial around their reputation from a transportation business from a FinTech or whatever.

John Croll  

So, for us, categorizing the information is really important, but then spending the time to go. What drives reputation, what drives consumer intent, what CEOs are saying and what resonates, all that is tagged all the way through the system. And then we watch inside the organization as well as to the external audience.

John Croll  

But inside the organization, what are people clicking on? Cause that's of interest to them.  

Anthony Woodward  

Obviously you're looking very much at what's happening out in the public sphere. What about the private data sets? Have you thought about the stretching into that and where do those pieces map to?  

John Croll  

One, I think it's, you can get the content.

John Croll  

There's plenty of Israeli and Ukrainian scraping companies where you can go and get that content, but I just feel we want to be very much around what's happening in the public space right now. And soon as we go into those other areas, it's Pandora's box that we don't understand as well. And we're probably moving out of corporate comms, government relations space.

John Croll  

And going into those sort of insight specialists inside organizations or the areas where you guys go. So, we don't know that market. There's plenty of scope for us to grow in the places we know. So, we'll stay in the public environment.  

Anthony Woodward  

And when you, you know, how deep and dark do you go? I'm intrigued. Like, you know, you talked about Reddit before, which is the beginning of the darkness.

Anthony Woodward  

Do you guys start to troll down to 4chan? How far do you trolls the bowels of the Internet?  

John Croll  

Reddit's about as deep in that forum, or other forum spaces, but we don't go any deeper than that. Yeah, to me, one, there hasn't been a huge need. There hasn't been a call from the corporate comms clients, government guys for it.

John Croll  

There are a few clients in the defense space that have asked for it, but we haven't decided to go in there just because of that specialization that we talked about before. But I wouldn't be surprised like, you know, it is a good position or where the question's going, Anthony, on one hand, because where we came back into the market was to solve this problem for people around being able to get access to content all on one platform and being able to see where reputation and your buying intent, all those things on one platform, see it all in real time and be able to see who's the most influential.  

John Croll  

So, if the world gets more murky or the forums become more influential around reputation, there may be clients may start to come and say, well, we need to see this information in real time as well.

John Croll  

And at that point. If we want them to be the smartest people in the room and the first informed, well, then we may have to go into that space. But at the moment we're happy enough that like trends comes out and we can put trends on the market in there straight away. LinkedIn is starting to become accessible and sort of fair use in America.

John Croll  

So, there's a lot of different content sources that we can get our hands on, which actually improve the service.  

Kris Brown  

So, what's the big next? What really moves the dial from your perspective, John, what needs to happen either societally, technology wise, or even just industry wise for you? What's the next big thing?

John Croll  

Yeah, so definitely predictive is huge. That the media cycle repeats itself. And if we can get ahead of that for our clients, so instead of confirming something happens to being able to make Great decisions going forward because we have this huge corpus of information that's all indexed, all has the smart tags to it.

John Croll  

So, predictive, I think, is going to change the way that corporate comms and government relations can operate. That's going to be the biggest tail breeze for the business. And then I think the second part is what I mentioned before, is that media relationship management. So, showing the effort that went into controlling an issue, managing an issue, defending the reputation of an organization or a government.

John Croll  

That's the next part of where our business expands to go as well.  

Kris Brown  

I just heard Anthony, that there's a real hook there back to clients who are using both solutions. They want to be able to use their internal data to predict what's going to happen on the outside.  

Anthony Woodward  

That's what I heard. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that we'll certainly grab a beer with John and talk about that opportunity.

Anthony Woodward  

I really thank you for making some time, John today and coming on. This is a super interesting topic. And I think Kris and I could probably ask questions for hours to really understand it, but thanks a lot for coming onto the podcast. You know, I reckon if we can, we'll probably even try and invite you back for another one and do a deep dive.

Anthony Woodward  

Did you want to plug your own podcast? Cause I know that you have one at Truescope.  

John Croll  

Yeah, well, thanks for all those kind words as well. Sounds like we're making a series and we're just about to design a product as well, all in 30 minutes. So, that's pretty cool. So, we do have a Truescope Talks. Some are podcasts, some are just interviews with people as well.

John Croll  

So, if you go to Truescope. com and have a look down resources, you'll see TrueScope Talks and yeah, have a read. There's some really interesting people there. Leaders in the media industry, media and, and media intelligence. So, yeah, but it's been great. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for the time.  

Anthony Woodward  

No, look, I've been listening to TrueScope talks and really enjoyed them.

Anthony Woodward  

So, I highly recommend it. On that topic, we generally ask a question towards the end of our guests around what other podcasts or other information sources do you use, John, that you'd recommend for people out there?  

John Croll  

Yeah, so in Australia on Thursdays, I always listen to The Fin. It's a great half an hour topic and really enjoyable, great when you're on the commute.

John Croll  

And Emily Chang just went from Bloomberg Technology and has just started a new podcast called The Circuit. And she's had some really interesting people Sam Altman was on there earlier and Bill Gurley who's made some investments in some amazing companies, just the last couple. So, yeah, Emily's The Circuit is really good as well.

Anthony Woodward  

Once again, thanks for being a part of the FILED and look, thanks for listening. I'm Anthony Woodward.  

Kris Brown  

And I'm Kris Brown. And we'll see you the next time on FILED.

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